Challenges and Solutions for the Property Management Industry

Brad Larson: Welcome everybody to another edition of the Property Management Mastermind Podcast. I'm your host Brad Larson, and today's two guests are coming at you from Steadily. This is an interesting company I want to talk to you about, because bringing these two guests on is going to give us an opportunity to really understand who they are, what they do, and how they're filling a significant need in our property management industry. I have Adam and Datha from Steadily. Adam, in a former life, was with RealPage — very familiar with a lot of the software and the property management world — and he's been around the circuit for a while. When he retired out of RealPage and took another career with Steadily, it was good to see him at the booth there at the NARPM Broker/Owner. We started a conversation, really started getting into Steadily, and had a good conversation a couple of times over so far. I thought, you know what, this would be an awesome podcast because people are going to know who you are and what you do. Let's consider this almost like a secret shopper where I'm interviewing you guys to find out who you are and what you do. Datha, you're going to have to explain who you are in this one too. I'm going to let Adam go first alphabetically, so Adam, give us a few minutes — tell us who you are.

Adam: Thanks Brad, and thanks for having me on. Great to see you and everybody else in the industry again. As you said, I was with RealPage for many years, loved the industry, took an opportunity to go into a different role, and I'm back — I just missed the property management industry that much. My role with Steadily is Head of Partnerships and Growth. The opportunity I was drawn to with Steadily was that it seemed like something that was missing from the industry. High level, who we are — and we'll talk a lot more about this today — is we're a tech-first company providing landlord insurance, so insurance for investors of rental properties. I was really drawn to the team and the company because of the team. A bunch of rock stars — you'll get to meet Datha here today — but just everybody that I met with, it just seems like something that is going to be big, so I want to be a part of it. And here I am.

Brad: To clarify, that's code — because when Adam says he misses the industry, he really missed the free drinks at the conferences. I just want to be clear on that one. So Datha, please give us a few minutes — introduce yourself.

Datha Santamaria: Yeah, absolutely. We are so glad to have Adam on board — he was a phenomenal addition to our senior leadership team. I'm Datha Santamaria. I am one of three co-founders at Steadily. My domain is insurance. My other co-founders come from heavy tech backgrounds, and my whole career has been in insurance — building programs, building out operations, doing the rates, and all that stuff that goes into insurance. We partnered up to create Steadily because on the side we were also investors ourselves. I've done several flips; my co-founder Darren bought 15 properties around the country, and we just kind of experienced firsthand the pain that comes along with trying to get insurance for your rental properties through the traditional market. It just didn't make any sense that when you can go online now and get a homeowner's quote within a few minutes — seamless and easy — you can't do the same thing for landlords. We pondered it for a while, three years actually, and no one had entered the space to solve the problem. That's when we created Steadily, with the intent of addressing this: to make it easy and seamless, remove the friction, use the technology to make it fast — fast access to those policies — and still affordable, so it's not extraordinarily more than you're paying currently. That's what we've been up to for the last couple of years.

Brad: Let me go backwards a little bit and illustrate the problem at length, because here we are — let's face it. When we sign up a new owner to work with us as property managers, third-party property managers, we have an owner — whether you're an individual landlord that owns properties or hundreds of properties — the problem is getting the proper level of insurance for that homeowner. As property managers, there are several techniques. You sit down with them at the kitchen table and say, "Okay, by the way, when you sign up with us, you're going to need to get this level of homeowners insurance that names my company as additionally insured." These insurance companies have different terms for that — they call it additional interest, they call it additional other stuff — they have different terms, and you never quite know if you're correctly covered. That's part of the problem.

Even at RentWorks, what we've been doing — and it's really kind of a workaround — is we were charging a surcharge. Automatically we would put this surcharge on top of an owner at the signing of the property management agreement, and we tell them face-to-face, and it's in writing: "Look, we don't want to charge you this. You go out, find the proper level of insurance, name RentWorks additionally insured, and we will remove this surcharge forever and ever." And even then we're only getting maybe 60 to 70 percent compliance — a silly number of owners that either have apathy against it and just don't comply, or they don't want to change carriers. They don't want to change and shop from USAA to State Farm to Farmers — they just don't want to go out and get you the proper level of insurance.

Backing up a bit on that — who cares, right? However, what happens is, let's say there's a claim. A tenant gets hurt, a vendor gets hurt, the mailman gets hurt on the property, and there's a claim. If they find that there's not the proper level of adequate insurance from the homeowner, guess who the next big target is — it's the property manager. The property manager is at a lot of risk, being the person they're going to point the fingers at. The other side of that is liability. Let's say there is a lawsuit and the homeowner is defending themselves and the property manager is defending themselves, but they're not working together, so you each have to go out and find separate representation in some sort of crazy lawsuit.

I know I'm really getting into the weeds of this stuff, but I've got to explain it further because it's been a problem in our industry for a long, long time. Like Datha mentioned in her intro — what's the solution to this? This is what we're going to talk about. Bear with me on that long explanation, but you need to understand that this has been a problem for a long time. Even the workaround where we charge a surcharge is not working because we're still only getting a minimal amount of compliance. All we want at the end of the day is for the owners to name us additionally insured. So this is the solution — or one of the solutions out there. Adam, I want you to talk about this as like the master-level insurance concept, because this is very similar, gang — very similar to our resident benefits package where we make the tenants additionally insured under the master policy for the property manager. This is very close and similar to that on the owner's side. Adam, please take it from there.

Adam: Thanks Brad. The industry over the past couple of years has really gotten to a place where you understand how to administer master policies, particularly on the renter's side. Very similar — a master policy is going to give you, the property manager, the opportunity to have complete visibility and control to ensure that everybody is compliant and that you're protected against everything that you just mentioned. A master policy works by setting up one policy under the property management company and then adding in everybody that opts into the program. How that's administered obviously has flexibility across the board depending on each property manager and how they really want to implement it, but what we've seen as best practice is you say, "Hey, I need to be listed as additional insured. Failure to do so, you're going to need to opt into our program so that we can fully administer and know that we're covered and listed as additionally insured and everything is meeting the criteria that we need to protect ourselves — the property manager." So it's a way to say either prove that we're listed as additional insured, or get on our master policy. The benefits of being on our master policy for you, the investor and owner, is that you're going to get great coverage, you're going to work with a company that we've selected and partnered with that is going to ensure your investment is taken care of, your investment is protected, and your rates are extremely competitive — the best in the industry at pulling together data and using technology to ensure the most competitive rate. In a nutshell, that's how it operates. Does that help, Brad? Is there anything else you want me to dive into?

Brad: Well, yeah — let's see if Datha can identify anything you missed there. Go ahead.

Datha: With our master policy there's a million dollars of liability coverage, which most of the standard policies that we see are usually a hundred to three hundred thousand. When we're talking about maximizing protection, having that higher level of liability coverage certainly makes a difference. From the landlord's perspective, again, what's in it for them is they've got somebody — you as the property manager — overseeing things and making sure that things are handled smoothly and seamlessly, so they don't have to call out to 15 different agents trying to find coverage. They can just come to you, you can present them the quote or the premium that we're providing, and they can take it or leave it. From the property manager's perspective, as Adam mentioned, just that visibility into what's going on — whether or not you're listed as an additional insured on these certificates, because you are the master policyholder. You can see every property that's covered under that policy. You have the option to either have it still billed directly to the insured, to the landlord, or you can collect the funds from them and pay it yourself. But either way, you also know if that bill isn't getting paid and the coverage is collapsing, which unfortunately is very common.

Brad: Let's hone in on that, because that's one of the key points I really want to stress. The first one is you're going to be named with the proper term, and that has some legal ramifications. If you're not named the proper term — and I'm butchering this Datha, so pardon me — if you're named "additional interest" versus "additionally insured," they may be different because the policies are written differently. If there is a claim, they're going to run straight to what's written in their policy and say, "Well, you were only named additional interest, so we're going to give you five cents of coverage." Being named the correct term is important. I didn't want to skip over that. In this regard, you guys are trying to look out for both the landlord and the property manager, so that is going to be written correctly in the policy — there's not going to be any wiggling out of this. I would assume you're going to back me up on that.

Before we go that way, I also want to say the how-you-pay is a really neat opportunity for property managers. When you get all this set up and you add somebody to your master policy, you can bill them monthly, quarterly, or annually — correct me if I'm wrong — but there's an opportunity for you to offer a really nice service to your landlords. You can say, "Look, we're going to tie in your landlord insurance into your monthly payment, so you're going to pay X for management fees, Y for your maintenance that month, and Z for your monthly landlord insurance — you're going to pay monthly for that." I see that as a really neat thing for all kinds of different reasons. Anyone want to comment on that part?

Adam: It's something where you're bringing value. These packages and these offerings — there's a reason why you're offering them. It's because you're adding value and providing a service that's going to be beneficial for your owners, or on the resident side, for your tenants. For the owners, as we talked about in the beginning, shopping for insurance is a pain. You have to call around, talk to a bunch of different people, they're going to ask you a million questions — it's a very archaic way of doing business. That's what we've brought to the table at Steadily: a frictionless process.

Brad: Great point. Let's really hammer in on that because this, in my opinion, is the easy button. I've always talked about this — we want to help the owners, the landlords, the tenants, the vendors — press the easy button. I'm envisioning this being implemented where you present this at the kitchen table. You're talking to an owner, they're interested in your services, they want to sign up, and they say, "What are you doing for homeowners insurance?" And you say, "Well, tell you what — here's a flyer, or here's a landing page that you can go to to get a quote nearly instantly." So please tell me about the quoting process, because this ties right into the easy button.

Adam: With the master policy, there is no shopping that your owners will have to do. The policy is set up by you, the management company. It's been selected and the levels of coverage have been determined. It's quite simply, "Here's the rate, and this is the policy." The interaction with our team — we have the best insurance people in the business. Our sales agents have on average over five years of experience, and we only hire the best. Most of the interaction with them — which was very eye-opening for me coming into the space again from the property management software side — it was really cool to see what they were doing: being the Geico of landlord insurance, where you can get an insurance policy without ever talking to anybody if you wish. Obviously they're there to have phone calls, consult, and advise on coverages, but you could literally bind and get a policy in place just by SMS texting. It's very much a tech-forward, different way of doing business that a lot of our customers are just loving.

Datha: I'll jump in there too. The benefit of a master policy is that it doesn't have the same underwriting approach that a traditional policy does, where you're going to have 101 questions that you need to answer to make sure it fits and you're getting the right rate. With a master policy the approach is really more of bulk rating. We're taking what we expect to be a large portfolio, looking across the board, and because of that we don't have to ask 101 questions. You pretty much put in the address, we provide the parameters — it needs to be a one-to-four family dwelling, it needs to be a long-term rental, you could be doing a fix and flip, that's totally fine too — what's the value you need on it, do you need any contents, how much loss of rent are we adding, you've got your million-dollar liability, here's your deductible, there's your price. It really is as simple as that.

Brad: That's good stuff. We've got a couple of ways of thinking about implementing this — one, obviously in the kitchen table presentation up front with the new property management agreements, but two, also going back to your current existing landlord base with this opportunity. Every property manager is going to ask this next question, and I'm going to do my Robert Gilstrap impression — aka Yosemite Sam — how am I going to make money on this? Adam, with a sly smile, what else?

Adam: First and foremost, we pay the best referral fees in the business, hands down. What you guys, as a property management company, are doing — we don't expect anybody to be licensed insurance specialists. That's what we're here for. What you're doing is referring folks to us to come and talk to us and ask all the hard questions, because we're licensed to do so. That's super important to lay that groundwork. From there, there are referral fees that we would pay to a property management company for driving referrals to us. Additionally — and Brad, you know this is your area of expertise — there is opportunity to do administrative fees for the monthly service of these plans to your owners. So there are two opportunities there if you so wish to pursue that.

Brad: I thought the monthly opportunity was really good because it makes your landlords, your owners, your clients a little bit more sticky — because they're getting really good insurance and working with you, and you're paying that bill for them on a monthly basis. Here's the opportunity for property managers: you can charge an admin fee every month to collect that money, turn around and pay out that money, and reconcile everything on the back side. A reasonable admin fee — three, five, seven bucks, something like that — could be administered, or you could wrap it into one of your bigger plans. If you have a three-tier pricing model, for example, you might be able to wrap it into that as a feature.

One of the things we talked about is we have a maintenance service package at RentWorks — it includes an annual HVAC inspection, home assessment before renewal, discounts on re-keying the home between tenancies — it's a really good monthly type package. I'm considering whether there's an opportunity to potentially rename that to an owner services package or an owner's benefits package, and essentially saying as part of this package you get master-level insurance, or an opportunity for master-level insurance — you have to opt into it of course. That's above and beyond what other property managers are doing. I think that would be a real good opportunity to market that and keep those clients coming to you. The whole Shark Tank thing — solve the problem. We've identified the problem: uninsured or underinsured homeowners that we work with as third-party property managers. Datha, did I miss anything in that?

Datha: I don't think so, that's right.

Brad: The quarterly billing thing — are you able to charge quarterly and do billing that way? Is that outside of what you'd like?

Datha: The problem you would run into with quarterly is the program is going to expect to be paid monthly. If you end up charging the landlord quarterly, essentially you or someone else is going to have to front those three months, or just collect those first three months upfront and so then you're paid for at least three months — you could do it that way. And just to tie into what you said about administrative fees — the key is to understand that the insurance policy itself cannot be changed. You would not be able to come in onto that insurance policy and manuscript in administrative fees. Whatever you do, tying it back to the policy itself is where you want to be careful. Since most PMs are not going to be insurance-licensed, you're not allowed to receive commission, you're not allowed to be an advisor from an insurance perspective — that's where we come in. If they want to talk about coverage, get us on the phone, we'll answer any questions, send us an email, text us. But if you just tie it to a benefits package or services that you're providing from an administrative perspective as a PM, that's fine because that's not actually related to the policy itself.

Brad: Yeah, it does make sense. There's a real good opportunity for property managers to bury it in the gumbo — you mix it in, you bake it in. If you did have some sort of owner services package, essentially you're burying that little admin fee cost. I'm just trying to answer the question because other property managers will ask: if I can reduce the burden of having to pay that bill from 12 times a year down to four times a year, I'm interested. But the quarterly is kind of cumbersome — they'd have to front the money — so really the best solution would be the monthly scenario. And again, if you did that line-item charge as Datha mentioned, the policy charge would be whatever it is — let's say $77.14 — and below that RentWorks would add an admin fee. Charging a $50 admin fee on top of that is probably going to get you in trouble, but something within reason is fine. There's a cost to do that on the accounting side, so I see that as a huge opportunity.

You guys got to talk more about the referral fees and how that works and setting up the pages. If I ask you how do we do this, take it from there, Adam.

Adam: We provide all the tools that you need to drive interested owners to us. When I say tech-savvy and tech-first, the tools that we've built — we have everything from no-code flow workflows to full APIs that you can leverage and use. As far as the tools we offer, we can offer a landing page and you can be up and running with a page on your website driving interested folks to us to get some information. We can have that up and running in a matter of minutes, co-branded with your logo. Then once they get engaged with us, we can provide the quote. When you're set up on a master policy, it's very straightforward. Getting in touch with us and getting up and going is, as Datha mentioned earlier, very quick and easy. We provide all the tools right on your website — a button, a click, and it's a seamless process.

Datha: I was just going to say one other thing that may be of interest to property managers — the property manager dashboard that we can provide. If they want a central place they can log in and see all of the properties that are currently certificate holders under that master policy, there's a section where they can notify us to remove a property or add an additional property, see the bills that are due — that sort of thing — just so that everything's in one place. That's available as well.

Brad: The dashboard is a big deal because obviously you're going to add and lose properties almost on a monthly basis. Most property managers are dealing with that — somebody sells, or they move back in, or they change property management companies — and then of course you should be adding properties to backfill those. Making that easy on your team, or yourself, is a big key because the benefits are starting to stack up here: it's easy to implement, you're getting paid a marketing referral fee, and then it's easy to work with on the monthly scenario where you're adding and subtracting properties and making that payment.

Question on how it works — let's say you're billing the owners to cover the policy. Are you billing us directly, or is the owner being billed? I'm trying to understand the billing process a bit better.

Datha: You can go either approach. If it's the property manager's preference that your landlords come in, get insured under your master policy, and we just bill them directly, then that's what will happen — we reach out to the customer, get them enrolled in recurring EFT so that the bill just gets paid for their properties every single month. If you want to go a step further and say you're going to collect the funds from the landlord as the master policyholder, you can come in once a month and pay all of the properties that are currently insured under your master policy. You can take that approach as well. I would think from a landlord's perspective there might be some ease of use in being able to hand over that burden and not worry about those extra payments coming out every month — just being able to hand it over to the property manager and say, "Take it out of what I owe you and make sure this gets paid every month." Then you just cut one check for the entire master policy.

Brad: Because it does make for a nice, pretty monthly invoice and a very nice annual compilation invoice to show exactly what's being paid for in the insurance — all those tax benefits, because they've got to go to their accountants and say, "This is the cost of running this home. I paid this for insurance. Here's the monthly fee, here's the annual compilation." I can see that being really good stuff. At the end of the day, we want to make it easy for the landlords, and this is part of how that ties in.

What are the other things I'm forgetting to ask you about at this point? Adam, with a sly smile — what else?

Adam: One of the biggest questions that came up a couple of weeks ago when we were at NARPM Broker/Owner was: what is landlord insurance? There's obviously still some awareness and education happening in the industry of what exactly landlord insurance is, because a lot of PMs haven't been involved at all on the insurance side for their owners. There's homeowners insurance policies, which protect the dwelling and liability — that's for owners of a home that are living in the home. A landlord insurance policy is very similar to homeowners in that it's protecting the dwelling and liability, but that's specifically for if you own the home but are not living in it — you're renting it to someone else. Two distinct differences there that are important for everybody to know. On the renter's side, there's renters insurance and there's tenant legal liability. Renters insurance covers accidental damage to the property but importantly also covers the resident's belongings, whereas tenant legal liability covers just accidental damage to the property and doesn't cover belongings. Those are kind of the four general policies that everybody should be aware of.

Brad: Let's take it a step deeper, because on the landlord insurance side — it's not necessarily 100% required if they own the home outright with no lien against it and no lender involved. They don't have to have insurance unless there are certain state provisions beyond our control. However, if they have any sort of lien or lender involved with that home, they are going to 100% have to have it, and there are typically some minimum coverages required. You guys are well-versed in those and are providing the adequate minimum coverages to meet the basic requirements that lenders are going to require. Maybe talk a little bit about some numbers, aggregates, minimums, and all that stuff that makes me want to cry.

Datha: I can jump in here. Just to double down on what Adam said about the difference between landlord and homeowners insurance — the biggest problem you're going to find is that you could potentially purchase a homeowners policy, and it doesn't mean they won't sell you one, but at the time of the claim when they find out there's somebody living in the property and it's not you, most likely the policy is going to get canceled or non-renewed, and they may have grounds to deny the claim if there's an exclusion within that policy that says you couldn't rent it out to people. So just because you were able to find somebody to sell you a homeowners policy doesn't mean that was actually the insurance that you need.

The other thing I would say is about that liability piece. We do talk to landlords who say, "I self-insure this property. I don't plan to rebuild it if it burns down. I've got X amount invested in it, I just want what I've invested in, and I'll go find something else." The approach we take with that is: if you don't care to insure the dwelling, then we can select a very low limit on that property where you understand that if it takes $250,000 to rebuild this property, you're insuring it for much less than that. What you get if that property burns down is not going to be enough to rebuild it, and you're fine with that — and of course that's going to come with a much lower premium. But we're going to get you that liability, because I guarantee most landlords don't want to find themselves being sued for a million dollars over some tragic event that occurred on their property and have to pay that out of pocket. It's one thing to cover a $100,000 property out of pocket; it's quite another to foot a million-dollar liability bill. We can accommodate those customers who do take that approach to their investment — get them a liability-heavy policy instead of paying for dwelling coverage that they may not want or need.

Brad: That's great stuff because you're helping us set up our owners and our landlords for success — providing them the correct coverage to, one, cover the property management company in case there is a major claim, and two, to provide them a really good service in their insurance needs. The policies and levels and aggregates — talk me through that, because that's where the property manager is going to get some pushback. You're going to come in and say, "You have this amount of coverage," and they're going to say, "Well, my State Farm over there says they have this amount of coverage" — or USAA or Farmers or Geico or whoever. That's how insurance folks sell their products — different levels of this, different levels of that. It's confusing as heck. Maybe you can shed some light on this.

Datha: The problem is, across the insurance industry, you never really know what the value of something is until there's a loss and you have to rebuild it. With any insurance company — master policy, standard policy, State Farm, Farmers, anybody — it's a guessing game. You're giving your best estimate to try to determine what you believe is going to be the total cost to rebuild this property at time of loss. With the master policy we have quite a bit of flexibility because we can really assign any value on the dwelling for the valuation that the customer wants, as long as they're making an informed purchasing decision. So that conversation would probably look like: "How much do you want to insure this for?" "I don't know — State Farm has it for $250,000." "Okay, we can set it for $250,000 to match what State Farm has, or we can run an independent valuation on it, which we have the tools to do, and see what it says." We can present that side by side and say, "Hey, the independent valuation actually values this property at $275,000 — that's what it's estimating it will cost to rebuild this from the ground up if there's a total loss."

A lot of it is just talking through and figuring out what the landlord is comfortable with. They might say, "No, I have my own contractors — if this house burns down, $250,000 is going to be plenty to rebuild it." Okay, let's take that approach. The policy does have what's called an insurance-to-value provision, which basically means that at time of loss, we want to make sure that the property is insured at at least 80% of its value in order to be able to collect on it. So if you're making a choice to insure a much lower value — like in the example where the landlord says, "I have $75,000 invested, that's what I want back out" — it would just mean that if half the building burns down, there's going to be a decrease in what they get because it wasn't insured to value.

Brad: Very important stuff. As property managers, one thing you've got to understand is you're not going to be asked to explain all of this. You're not going to be asked to sell insurance. All you're doing is putting a resource in front of your landlords — existing and/or new — and saying, "This is a good idea, check it out, and make your own decision. We'd love to have you jump onto our master policy." That's a really simple way to paraphrase it. So explain to me — you have a landing page, right? You can add this to your website. When we direct landlords to that landing page, what are they seeing? What are their next steps? How does that work?

Adam: The benefit of working with us at Steadily is that we're flexible to partner with you, the property manager, on whatever workflow is best for you. If you want to just sign them up with minimal questions about the policy and coverage from your owners, and provide a one-pager that we can help build for you that answers all the frequently asked questions, we can do that. If you want a web page that you direct them to — co-branded, right there within your ecosystem — a click of a button puts them in touch with us so they can ask all the questions and we can present the master policy program we've built with you in partnership, we can do that. It can be where you're driving them to us, or where you're taking all the steps to just sign them up with minimal questions. However you'd like to set it up is what we can support.

Datha: The only thing I would add is — if you want to have that widget on your site — when you sign up, we're asking for the property address, asking them to validate certain limits as far as the valuation. They get to see a premium. We say, "Okay, this is going to be $1,200 for the year — how does that sound?" They will have the option to go ahead and purchase it right there, or if they say, "Hey, I have questions, I want to talk to somebody," we can get in touch with them. We try to make it low-touch. If they're someone who doesn't want to talk on the phone and just wants to know what they need to know, we can facilitate that approach as well.

Brad: It is amazing nowadays how people don't want to talk over the phone. Think of all the things you can do without ever communicating over the phone — you can book a VRBO or an Airbnb without ever talking to anybody, you can order food without ever talking to anybody. That's the phenomenon we're in. I thought this has been a really cool conversation between the three of us about this new offering. I want you to explain to people what's the next step or how's the best way to reach you and talk more about it.

Adam: Thanks again for having us — this has been, as expected, a very great conversation, Brad. Always enjoy catching up. To find out more about the program, we do have a website set up where you can go and learn all the important details. It's steadily.com/partners/pmm. We've set up that page to answer all your questions and it has the opportunity to reach out and find out more. In closing, one thing I'd say about Steadily — we talked about how confusing insurance can be. The important thing is knowing that at Steadily, our core focus is landlord insurance. That's what we do. When you work with a lot of other insurance carriers, they may do home, auto, life, all kinds of different stuff — we do landlord insurance, and we're going to do it better than anybody else. When it comes to having questions as folks in property management, real estate, and investing, you're going to want to talk to people that get it and understand it. That's who we are. We're going to make sure that you get the most competitive rates that meet your risk tolerance and what you're looking for. That's what we do.

Brad: And to paraphrase — you have two ways to make money as a property manager in this regard: potentially small admin fees per month, and a pretty good referral fee program. You can go over the specifics with each prospective property management company that you work with, but there's your opportunity — providing a good service and getting paid to do that with a little bit more revenue generation. I think it's a win and everybody should look further into it. Datha, any closing comments?

Datha: We appreciate it. Like Adam said, we were built by landlords for landlords. We're a tech company but we also have heavy insurance backgrounds, and we're solving what we felt like was a gap. We didn't just come up with a good idea because we thought it would sell — it was because we had a personal pain point, we saw a gap in the marketplace, and we jumped in to fill it.

Brad: Great conversation, gang. I really hope to see you guys at the Property Management Mastermind Conference coming up in May of 2022 at the Red Rock Resort in Las Vegas. There's plenty of time to still get in there, so go sign up and see you there. Thanks again for coming on the show today — I appreciate it and we will stay in touch. See you soon.